we can't beat good teams with this defense

[Ramsfan08ny]

Bottom post of the previous page:

OMG... you go on and on. Unless you have the 2000 Ravens defense no one is shutting down a team like Detroit or the Rams for that matter. The Rams are 11-3 and just as easily could be unbeaten. That Lions team is fast and it took a minute to figure them out. It's the way of the NFL these days.

The Eagles held the Lions to 9 points this year. Clearly they were capable

Just plain stupid to use past team to team comparisons. The Giants beat the Eagles. Does that make them one of the top teams in the league? Same question Falcons over the Bills.

Need I give you any more past games to compare?

[Ramsfan08ny]

Sometimes I don't understand these post. The Lions are an explosive offense with speed. The Rams did exactly what they needed in shutting down their running game. They don't do that, then the Lions win the game. I thought the performance was what you could expect.

If you give up 34 in the playoffs, you lose.

Last 8 seasons, if you give up that many your record is 3-21 in the playoffs. Hence the OP’s post.

One other thing. No, you don't "lose". As you stated, 3 teams won. The Rams won today vs the best offense in the nfl.

[sanbagger]

The Eagles held the Lions to 9 points this year. Clearly they were capable

You know what? You and the handful of others on here who do nothing but bitch are just people who don't appreciate a damn thing. My household has been through some shit this year and I am done with you crapping on the joy that this team has brought to us this season. You and those handful of others can shove your bullshit where it doesn't shine. Go find the Chargers board assholes.

Sorry to hear you have had a bad year Cierra, hope you have a great Holiday season.

Now, to the post....I laughed pretty good at you telling them off...but don't let it get to you. Keep posting your rational well thought out posts I enjoy reading. Some people are just worry warts and that's their way of handling things....in the end most of them are Rams fans...that's right, I said most not all.

Enjoy the Egg Nog

[Cornell29]

OMG... you go on and on. Unless you have the 2000 Ravens defense no one is shutting down a team like Detroit or the Rams for that matter. The Rams are 11-3 and just as easily could be unbeaten. That Lions team is fast and it took a minute to figure them out. It's the way of the NFL these days.

The Eagles held the Lions to 9 points this year. Clearly they were capable

That was outside in the cold at Eagles Lincoln Stadium.

Lions offense isn't as effective in that environment. With that said, I agree that the eagles D is better than Rams. Their corners are Q Williams and C DeJean

[Bulldawg]

First half, just awful and not what I was expecting.

Second half, now that’s what I was expecting and hoped for.

Literally tale of both Rams teams today, we’ve seen this season.

I truly hope we do not witness first half Rams today again.

Seriously knee jerk reaction imo. It's been going on all season this year. Terrible in the loses. I have to be honest when I say that this season has been my least favorite in my 8 years here for that reason. Comments like this post should be made at the end of the game and they continue to stink.. as in a trend. This is an 11-3 team yet you'd think they are the opposite. Im mean for real

100% agree. Cierra, could you imagine how bad it would be if we were 8-6? Yes, parts of our defense suck, but read the comments and you would think we were the Falcons. Detroit was the #1 offense in the league. Our defense is our defense at this point. I am even okay with calling it bad, but some people here act like we won't win another game.

[DVA_ram33]

Every team has its problems. I actually think the Rams are pretty good all round team and I think a lot of our problems are scheming on the defensive backfield. Sure we don't have shut down corners but which team has.

If Shula schemes a bit better then we can duke it out with anyone in this league. Actually I take that back, we can duke it out even without the perfect scheming.

And why aren't we talking about our run defence or our great OL play and the fact that we have a killer WR and RB tandem or Colby Parkinson becoming a legit top TE.

[therealheadslap75]

First half, just awful and not what I was expecting.

Second half, now that’s what I was expecting and hoped for.

Literally tale of both Rams teams today, we’ve seen this season.

I truly hope we do not witness first half Rams today again.

Seriously knee jerk reaction imo. It's been going on all season this year. Terrible in the loses. I have to be honest when I say that this season has been my least favorite in my 8 years here for that reason. Comments like this post should be made at the end of the game and they continue to stink.. as in a trend. This is an 11-3 team yet you'd think they are the opposite. Im mean for real

Cierra, how about you post what you want and I post what I want when I want, there's no law against posting during the game. In the first half of the game the Rams were not playing good defense it was timely and accurate. Should all post be limited to the end of the game, or is one game too small of a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusion, perhaps we should post at the midway point of the season, everyone is allowed to post twice per year or We can all wait till the end of the season to post our most conclusive thoughts if you think that makes the most sense. Why draw any conclusions at any time at all then.

[therealheadslap75]

It’s a bad thread. That cover it…………….

Once again Norcal here you are making sure no one posts anything disparaging and trying to control how people communicate on here with your little quips. Did you think the Rams defense played well in the first half? Well Tom Brady sure didn't and he knows a lot about footballl, in fact they were making jokes that the Lions punter didn't even get on the field.

Or did you think they played poorly but that I should keep it to myself and not litter the Rams message board with negativity?

I'm curious, do you think McVay opens this forum at halftime and reads the posts to the team? Is that why you're so protective and want to stay motivational?

Here's an idea, if you are too sensitive to read negative posts, don't read them.

Believe me Norcal I've noticed the Rams are good, I know we're 11 and three I know we are the top in the NFC right now, should I make a post about that? we all know that. I promise you when we win the Super Bowl you're gonna read weeks of happy thoughts.

[CierraRam]

Seriously knee jerk reaction imo. It's been going on all season this year. Terrible in the loses. I have to be honest when I say that this season has been my least favorite in my 8 years here for that reason. Comments like this post should be made at the end of the game and they continue to stink.. as in a trend. This is an 11-3 team yet you'd think they are the opposite. Im mean for real

Cierra, how about you post what you want and I post what I want when I want, there's no law against posting during the game. In the first half of the game the Rams were not playing good defense it was timely and accurate. Should all post be limited to the end of the game, or is one game too small of a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusion, perhaps we should post at the midway point of the season, everyone is allowed to post twice per year or We can all wait till the end of the season to post our most conclusive thoughts if you think that makes the most sense. Why draw any conclusions at any time at all then.

Oh, I don't know... Because its pointless to make the comments that you do without the story being nearly written. Does such a body of work hold up in a court of law? I think not. Because its full of holes and gets shredded in the end. You do it all the time, and its old, tired crap.

[CierraRam]

Seriously knee jerk reaction imo. It's been going on all season this year. Terrible in the loses. I have to be honest when I say that this season has been my least favorite in my 8 years here for that reason. Comments like this post should be made at the end of the game and they continue to stink.. as in a trend. This is an 11-3 team yet you'd think they are the opposite. Im mean for real

100% agree. Cierra, could you imagine how bad it would be if we were 8-6? Yes, parts of our defense suck, but read the comments and you would think we were the Falcons. Detroit was the #1 offense in the league. Our defense is our defense at this point. I am even okay with calling it bad, but some people here act like we won't win another game.

Geez Louis man, its rather obvious that the loss of Lake changed what Shula wants to do and exposed the corners problem into being something of a worse problem than any of us even knew. It also quite apparently changed the way he utilizes the pass rush because the sack numbers are also way down since Lakes loss. The defense has been inconsistent since, but on the same hand is no where near as bad as this op and the others make it out to be after a quarter of one game. Or one game out of 17. This isn't the 2000 Rams defense. Not even close.

[NorCal RF]

It’s a bad thread. That cover it…………….

Once again Norcal here you are making sure no one posts anything disparaging and trying to control how people communicate on here with your little quips. Did you think the Rams defense played well in the first half? Well Tom Brady sure didn't and he knows a lot about footballl, in fact they were making jokes that the Lions punter didn't even get on the field.

Or did you think they played poorly but that I should keep it to myself and not litter the Rams message board with negativity?

I'm curious, do you think McVay opens this forum at halftime and reads the posts to the team? Is that why you're so protective and want to stay motivational?

Here's an idea, if you are too sensitive to read negative posts, don't read them.

Believe me Norcal I've noticed the Rams are good, I know we're 11 and three I know we are the top in the NFC right now, should I make a post about that? we all know that. I promise you when we win the Super Bowl you're gonna read weeks of happy thoughts.

It has nothing to do with absolutely anything you just said. Nothing. It has to do with a damn inaccurate thread that again you started another one yesterday that is called a consistent bitter person always trying to find something wrong with this team. Even at 11-3. This team either has to be perfect at all phases of this game all the time with you or you…….. Then try to justify your……..

This thread you started IN THE FIRST QUARTER AGAIN yesterday is flat out inaccurate. Take the replies from other stating it is n move on. Houston, Detroit, Tampa, Seattle, SF n Jacksonville are good teams competing right now for a playoff spot that this team beat. Teams that this D contributed in winning. What the Tampa n Jacksonville performances were not good enough for you!

And save the scroll on crap with cirrra. She stated how important this forum is to her and why posts like yours is bothering her during a 11-3 season. Here is a thought? Show just a little understanding and compassion to her in what she said. It applies to a few in here what we have gone thru personally either now, recently, or continue to do so and this forum is a step away from that just for a minute. Your response was all about you n not recognizing what she said on why she said what she said.

As a few know in here I 100% recognize why she said what she said. How damn hard is it to show some compassion……..

[RAMFAN71]

Unfortunately some people on this board are going to have to accept it....The 2025 Rams are a good team all the way around. We have a very tough schedule. 2 fluke losses, and 11 wins so far. I cannot square this. We are good. Very good.

[therealheadslap75]

Cierra, how about you post what you want and I post what I want when I want, there's no law against posting during the game. In the first half of the game the Rams were not playing good defense it was timely and accurate. Should all post be limited to the end of the game, or is one game too small of a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusion, perhaps we should post at the midway point of the season, everyone is allowed to post twice per year or We can all wait till the end of the season to post our most conclusive thoughts if you think that makes the most sense. Why draw any conclusions at any time at all then.

Oh, I don't know... Because its pointless to make the comments that you do without the story being nearly written. Does such a body of work hold up in a court of law? I think not. Because its full of holes and gets shredded in the end. You do it all the time, and its old, tired crap.

[therealheadslap75]

Cierra, how about you post what you want and I post what I want when I want, there's no law against posting during the game. In the first half of the game the Rams were not playing good defense it was timely and accurate. Should all post be limited to the end of the game, or is one game too small of a sample size to draw any reasonable conclusion, perhaps we should post at the midway point of the season, everyone is allowed to post twice per year or We can all wait till the end of the season to post our most conclusive thoughts if you think that makes the most sense. Why draw any conclusions at any time at all then.

Oh, I don't know... Because its pointless to make the comments that you do without the story being nearly written. Does such a body of work hold up in a court of law? I think not. Because its full of holes and gets shredded in the end. You do it all the time, and its old, tired crap.

so you would find it more refreshing if I said, wow Stafford's playing great? Or OMG we are doing great 11-3. no matter what stage of the game we were in??? , or should I wait till the game ended???

Have you ever been to a game of any sort, there are thousands of people yelling at their team, some cheering, some cursing, some people don't say anything, some people eat chicken wings, that's what being a fan is all about, everybody gets to root the way they want to. I appreciate you allowing me to do it the way I want to. Because as you may have noticed other than this post, I've never made a negative comment about you or your style of fandom.

[therealheadslap75]

The Eagles held the Lions to 9 points this year. Clearly they were capable

You know what? You and the handful of others on here who do nothing but bitch are just people who don't appreciate a damn thing. My household has been through some shit this year and I am done with you crapping on the joy that this team has brought to us this season. You and those handful of others can shove your bullshit where it doesn't shine. Go find the Chargers board assholes.

i'm sorry you're having a tough year, I don't think anyone is making posts to make you feel bad and if you feel it necessary to call me an asshole because I didn't like the way the defense was playing in the first half, have at it, but I'm gonna support everyone on this board's right to post whatever they want about the Rams as long as it's respectful to the other members, maybe you should consider that as well

[therealheadslap75]

Once again Norcal here you are making sure no one posts anything disparaging and trying to control how people communicate on here with your little quips. Did you think the Rams defense played well in the first half? Well Tom Brady sure didn't and he knows a lot about footballl, in fact they were making jokes that the Lions punter didn't even get on the field.

Or did you think they played poorly but that I should keep it to myself and not litter the Rams message board with negativity?

I'm curious, do you think McVay opens this forum at halftime and reads the posts to the team? Is that why you're so protective and want to stay motivational?

Here's an idea, if you are too sensitive to read negative posts, don't read them.

Believe me Norcal I've noticed the Rams are good, I know we're 11 and three I know we are the top in the NFC right now, should I make a post about that? we all know that. I promise you when we win the Super Bowl you're gonna read weeks of happy thoughts.

It has nothing to do with absolutely anything you just said. Nothing. It has to do with a damn inaccurate thread that again you started another one yesterday that is called a consistent bitter person always trying to find something wrong with this team. Even at 11-3. This team either has to be perfect at all phases of this game all the time with you or you…….. Then try to justify your……..

This thread you started IN THE FIRST QUARTER AGAIN yesterday is flat out inaccurate. Take the replies from other stating it is n move on. Houston, Detroit, Tampa, Seattle, SF n Jacksonville are good teams competing right now for a playoff spot that this team beat. Teams that this D contributed in winning. What the Tampa n Jacksonville performances were not good enough for you!

And save the scroll on crap with cirrra. She stated how important this forum is to her and why posts like yours is bothering her during a 11-3 season. Here is a thought? Show just a little understanding and compassion to her in what she said. It applies to a few in here what we have gone thru personally either now, recently, or continue to do so and this forum is a step away from that just for a minute. Your response was all about you n not recognizing what she said on why she said what she said.

As a few know in here I 100% recognize why she said what she said. How damn hard is it to show some compassion……..

OK first of all Norcal I am not involved in anyone's personal life on this board and if someone's having a hard time again I'm sorry I didn't criticize anybody specifically I wasn't disrespectful to anybody specifically I didn't talk about anybody specifically, I don't craft my posts about the Rams with a focus on what's going on with people's lives at home, maybe you do and if that's how you do it God bless you

Secondly Jared Goff through for 338 yards three touchdowns and the Lions scored 34 points, a lot of those yards and points were scored in the first half when I made my comment

Even the studio announcers made the comment that the punter hadn't seen the field, any objective fan should have realized that the defense was not playing great, the comment was in the confines of that situation

Meaning the way the defense is playing it was not going to be too many quality teams

Do the Rams have a good defense yes they do they're ranked third in points and they're ranked first in many categories

PFF rates Puna Ford as one of the best defensive tackles in the league, landman is one of the best linebackers in the league according to PFF, both safeties are ranked very high and we have two outside linebackers that are ranked in the top 15

So we do have a good defense I was posting about the play in the first half

Since it was an opinion it's not open to factual interpretation but I think based on most reasonable football related standards the defense in the first half played poorly so to respond to your comment about me being wrong I beg to differ

But again this is an attempt of you to passively aggressively control my dialogue for the 9000th time and I'm going to tell you the same thing don't fucking read the post

[DelMar]

First half, just awful and not what I was expecting.

Second half, now that’s what I was expecting and hoped for.

Literally tale of both Rams teams today, we’ve seen this season.

I truly hope we do not witness first half Rams today again.

Seriously knee jerk reaction imo. It's been going on all season this year. Terrible in the loses. I have to be honest when I say that this season has been my least favorite in my 8 years here for that reason. Comments like this post should be made at the end of the game and they continue to stink.. as in a trend. This is an 11-3 team yet you'd think they are the opposite. Im mean for real

Hi C, you mean my post is a knee jerk reaction or Headslaps usual venting threads during games?

For my reply post to you here, I was just saying it how I see things. Our losses are just bad stupid losses. Literally beat ourselves in everyone of them, as I honestly can say that no team just beat us outright... in the sense that if it was not for our mistakes, we could be 14-0. I realize our team takes time to acclimate to other teams, but the soft zone is driving me bananas. Second half, we did exactly what I was hoping for... scare Goff and we did.

[Bulldawg]

Oh, I don't know... Because its pointless to make the comments that you do without the story being nearly written. Does such a body of work hold up in a court of law? I think not. Because its full of holes and gets shredded in the end. You do it all the time, and its old, tired crap.

so you would find it more refreshing if I said, wow Stafford's playing great? Or OMG we are doing great 11-3. no matter what stage of the game we were in??? , or should I wait till the game ended???

Have you ever been to a game of any sort, there are thousands of people yelling at their team, some cheering, some cursing, some people don't say anything, some people eat chicken wings, that's what being a fan is all about, everybody gets to root the way they want to. I appreciate you allowing me to do it the way I want to. Because as you may have noticed other than this post, I've never made a negative comment about you or your style of fandom.

I wouldn’t even mind “Our defense sucks right now…”. Just not that “we can’t beat a good team” which is completely false.

Headslap, it is not that you point out things we need to do better, but is HOW you word it that makes you sound a little out of touch. Yes, our defense pooped in the bed for most of the game. They had some good plays in the 3rd quarter. Keep saying what you want and don’t consider the feedback people are tying to give you. We will continue to ignore the posts. It would be better to be constructive than throwing in the towel after a few series. That is all everyone is saying. No team is perfect and we agree our defense did suck. Just enjoy the ride.

[Bulldawg]

Seriously knee jerk reaction imo. It's been going on all season this year. Terrible in the loses. I have to be honest when I say that this season has been my least favorite in my 8 years here for that reason. Comments like this post should be made at the end of the game and they continue to stink.. as in a trend. This is an 11-3 team yet you'd think they are the opposite. Im mean for real

Hi C, you mean my post is a knee jerk reaction or Headslaps usual venting threads during games?

For my reply post to you here, I was just saying it how I see things. Our losses are just bad stupid losses. Literally beat ourselves in everyone of them, as I honestly can say that no team just beat us outright... in the sense that if it was not for our mistakes, we could be 14-0. I realize our team takes time to acclimate to other teams, but the soft zone is driving me bananas. Second half, we did exactly what I was hoping for... scare Goff and we did.

I can’t speak for Cierra but I don’t think that is what he/she was talking about. Mine was a general comment about a few people on this board that make it almost impossible to read the threads. Nothing wrong with calling out bad play. As you know, some people take it even further and start saying stupid stuff “like McVay’s sucks”, etc. big difference in saying he made a bad call vs calling him a terrible coach or saying we can beat good teams when we are 11-3

[DelMar]

Hi C, you mean my post is a knee jerk reaction or Headslaps usual venting threads during games?

For my reply post to you here, I was just saying it how I see things. Our losses are just bad stupid losses. Literally beat ourselves in everyone of them, as I honestly can say that no team just beat us outright... in the sense that if it was not for our mistakes, we could be 14-0. I realize our team takes time to acclimate to other teams, but the soft zone is driving me bananas. Second half, we did exactly what I was hoping for... scare Goff and we did.

I can’t speak for Cierra but I don’t think that is what he/she was talking about. Mine was a general comment about a few people on this board that make it almost impossible to read the threads. Nothing wrong with calling out bad play. As you know, some people take it even further and start saying stupid stuff “like McVay’s sucks”, etc. big difference in saying he made a bad call vs calling him a terrible coach.

I wasn't sure bud, thanks. I have never seen Cierra this annoyed and you know what... she's correct and I agree with her and your sentiments.

I agree w her in that I am tired of people bitching about this team. Look, we as fans can call a spade a spade... and that is fan life. But some in here just constant complain. I dont get it. It's like they expect a perfect team.

Does this team make me sweat at times, absolutely. And at times I do vent those issues, but again... we are 11-3 and in FIRST place in the NFC... we literally have NO ONE in front of us.

[NorCal RF]

It has nothing to do with absolutely anything you just said. Nothing. It has to do with a damn inaccurate thread that again you started another one yesterday that is called a consistent bitter person always trying to find something wrong with this team. Even at 11-3. This team either has to be perfect at all phases of this game all the time with you or you…….. Then try to justify your……..

This thread you started IN THE FIRST QUARTER AGAIN yesterday is flat out inaccurate. Take the replies from other stating it is n move on. Houston, Detroit, Tampa, Seattle, SF n Jacksonville are good teams competing right now for a playoff spot that this team beat. Teams that this D contributed in winning. What the Tampa n Jacksonville performances were not good enough for you!

And save the scroll on crap with cirrra. She stated how important this forum is to her and why posts like yours is bothering her during a 11-3 season. Here is a thought? Show just a little understanding and compassion to her in what she said. It applies to a few in here what we have gone thru personally either now, recently, or continue to do so and this forum is a step away from that just for a minute. Your response was all about you n not recognizing what she said on why she said what she said.

As a few know in here I 100% recognize why she said what she said. How damn hard is it to show some compassion……..

OK first of all Norcal I am not involved in anyone's personal life on this board and if someone's having a hard time again I'm sorry I didn't criticize anybody specifically I wasn't disrespectful to anybody specifically I didn't talk about anybody specifically, I don't craft my posts about the Rams with a focus on what's going on with people's lives at home, maybe you do and if that's how you do it God bless you

Secondly Jared Goff through for 338 yards three touchdowns and the Lions scored 34 points, a lot of those yards and points were scored in the first half when I made my comment

Even the studio announcers made the comment that the punter hadn't seen the field, any objective fan should have realized that the defense was not playing great, the comment was in the confines of that situation

Meaning the way the defense is playing it was not going to be too many quality teams

Do the Rams have a good defense yes they do they're ranked third in points and they're ranked first in many categories

PFF rates Puna Ford as one of the best defensive tackles in the league, landman is one of the best linebackers in the league according to PFF, both safeties are ranked very high and we have two outside linebackers that are ranked in the top 15

So we do have a good defense I was posting about the play in the first half

Since it was an opinion it's not open to factual interpretation but I think based on most reasonable football related standards the defense in the first half played poorly so to respond to your comment about me being wrong I beg to differ

But again this is an attempt of you to passively aggressively control my dialogue for the 9000th time and I'm going to tell you the same thing don't fucking read the post

You still don’t get it n never will. Sad………….

Take the last word I know you can’t resist…………

[DelMar]

Ok, this thread needs some help. So, here we go... Smile.

[Truth]

The Eagles held the Lions to 9 points this year. Clearly they were capable

Just plain stupid to use past team to team comparisons. The Giants beat the Eagles. Does that make them one of the top teams in the league? Same question Falcons over the Bills.

Need I give you any more past games to compare?

The Eagles are a team we could play in the playoffs. They’ve been to the Super Bowl twice in a row.
They’ve beat us 3 times in a row.

They played the same Lions team we played a couple weeks ago and shut them down.

So when someone makes an assinine comment like “nobody can shut down the Lions unless you have a 2000 Ravens defense”, well no. That’s not true at all. The Eagles dominated them.

[timlan205789]

Yeah it’s a road game in Sofi vs the Whiners but at least we’re familiar with the field and environment so HFA is still important.

It’s very important to shake off the fucking Seahawks once and for all this Thursday.

[Cornell29]

[NorCal RF]

Earth to slap come in slap………

I stand by what I said. A damn inaccurate thread by OP with again a lack of responsibility after the fact…….

But hey it’s my right to post BS and how dare anyone call me out on it………..

Solid post cornell………

[FelixTheStonerCat]

Seriously knee jerk reaction imo. It's been going on all season this year. Terrible in the loses. I have to be honest when I say that this season has been my least favorite in my 8 years here for that reason. Comments like this post should be made at the end of the game and they continue to stink.. as in a trend. This is an 11-3 team yet you'd think they are the opposite. Im mean for real

100% agree. Cierra, could you imagine how bad it would be if we were 8-6? Yes, parts of our defense suck, but read the comments and you would think we were the Falcons. Detroit was the #1 offense in the league. Our defense is our defense at this point. I am even okay with calling it bad, but some people here act like we won't win another game.

Y'all cant bring me up. Y'all can try. But yall can't. I was nothing but positive Sunday. Some "people", mostly people with a stick up their ass ignore the positive. Oh well.

[FelixTheStonerCat]

You know what? You and the handful of others on here who do nothing but bitch are just people who don't appreciate a damn thing. My household has been through some shit this year and I am done with you crapping on the joy that this team has brought to us this season. You and those handful of others can shove your bullshit where it doesn't shine. Go find the Chargers board assholes.

i'm sorry you're having a tough year, I don't think anyone is making posts to make you feel bad and if you feel it necessary to call me an asshole because I didn't like the way the defense was playing in the first half, have at it, but I'm gonna support everyone on this board's right to post whatever they want about the Rams as long as it's respectful to the other members, maybe you should consider that as well

Man, keep doing you. If they don't like it they can block you. They'll be alright.

[FelixTheStonerCat]

Anywhoosies, im staying on topic before the Gestapo gets mad. We've beaten good teams with this defense. The loss of Lake caused us to change things up on defense if youd actually pay attention and watch the game. Witherspoon has been hurt for tbe majority of the year. We're 11-3 with an Elite QB, an Elite run game and a defense that makes stops when they need to. This whole thread is horseshit.